Interview with Danielle Grace
SL Ziegler interviews Danielle Grace.
Danielle is a trans woman and uses she/her pronouns. We talk about the inauguration of Biden, the total mess that was 2020, and being a pastor.
Interviewee: Danielle Grace
Interviewer: S.L. Ziegler
Transcriber: Dre Tarleton
January 21, 2021
Location of interviewee: Calcasieu Parish
[Interview has been slightly edited for clarity and length.]
SL ZIEGLER: Okay, this meeting is being recorded everybody. Hello, this is S.L. Ziegler, sitting down remotely with Danielle Grace. Danielle is a trans woman and uses she/her pronouns. Today is January 21, 2021. I'm so happy to say that. We're meeting remotely using Zoom because the COVID-19 pandemic is still, still very scary. So, Dani, as we discussed before, this interview is part of the Louisiana Trans Oral History Project. The goal is to gather real world examples of what it means to be trans in Louisiana, here in the early 21st century, and to donate these interviews to the T. Harry Williams History Center at LSU, if you so choose, and to put them, in part or in whole, on the project's website. Please know that you can stop this interview at any time, and if you have any questions about this or anything you can reach out to me at any time. And please also know that these interviews are a joint project between you and me, so you'll have a chance, as we talked about, to review the transcripts and any portion of them can be de-identified, restricted of completely just deleted, as you see fit. And I'll just ask for a verbal confirmation that all of that sounds like what we talked about before the tape started rolling.
Grace: Sounds good.
ZIEGLER: Fantastic. Perfect. Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to have you here. I really feel like we're going to have a lot to talk about. But I wonder if you'd be willing to just sort of start at the beginning. So, could you tell us where you were born and when?
Grace: Born New Iberia, LA, 1971.
ZIEGLER: And you're still in New Iberia now, is that right?
Grace: No, I'm actually in Calcasieu Parish. If you look at where the two hurricanes met, there you go.
ZIEGLER: Yeah, exactly. Were you there for that?
Grace: No, we actually evacuated to Ponchatoula for both storms.
ZIEGLER: Oh, I see. And the two storms we're talking about are, can you just remind us?
Grace: Laura and Delta.
ZIEGLER: Which both came through in 2020.
Grace: Yes.
ZIEGLER: How long did you live in New Iberia?
Grace: First 18 years of my life.
ZIEGLER: Do you have anything you'd like to tell us about New Iberia? So, you were there for 18 years. So, your parents were there, presumably.
Grace: They were. I love my hometown. I don't want to live there. I'm sure a lot of people have that opinion about where they're from. I love the history and culture of my hometown, but I outgrew it by the time I was 18, and trips back is reminding me why I'm comfortable with being elsewhere.
ZIEGLER: Do you still have family there?
Grace: I do. Most of my family lives in or around there. My dad passed away 12 years ago. In fact, it was this Friday, 12 years ago this past Friday, and I was a hot mess all day. And my mom's still there and I have family just in the general area.
ZIEGLER: I'm sorry to hear about your father. What did your parents do?
Grace: My dad was a mechanic for a long time, big engine mechanic, and spent some time working offshore before, medically, he retired. And my mom just has done a little bit of everything. She did childcare, she did baking. She's going to be 80 this year, so she's well in her retirement years.
ZIEGLER: Did their parents live in New Iberia? How far back does your family go there?
Grace: Both sides of my family came from the Acadian dispersion. My mother's side of the family has roots in Lafayette. In fact, I have family that's buried behind Saint John's Cathedral. Most recent funeral was just a few years ago, that I was out there for one of those. My dad's family, as far back as I can tell, from parts of Iberia Parish. A little rural area called Olivier is where my dad grew up.
ZIEGLER: So, strong ties to the area, then.
Grace: Strong ties. When my dad died, I found my grandfather's baptism records. I called the church, trying to read the names, and that was 1917, I believe. Everything was still recorded in French at that time. I've got a history degree, so I find stuff like that fascinating.
ZIEGLER: Yeah. Do you speak French? Read French?
Grace: I don't. I learned all the cuss words as a kid, but that's common. But I can understand a little bit of it if it's spoken slowly enough, but not really. And I took some in high school, but it was modern French. It wasn't the Cajun French. I'm the first generation on either of my family not to really speak French. And it's kind of sad.
ZIEGLER: So, did they speak it at home?
Grace: Oh, yeah. I had a great aunt that lived I think two blocks from where I grew up, and my dad would always want to go see her. She was an old maid, and she had a roommate and they would get there and start talking in French. Because I don't think she spoke a lick of English, and she died in the late 70s. I really don't think she spoke any English.
ZIEGLER: So, what school did you go to?
Grace: New Iberia Senior High.
ZIEGLER: And then, so you left after graduation?
Grace: I did. I went to college in Mississippi.
ZIEGLER: Which one?
Grace: Jones County Junior College, then William Carey College.
ZIEGLER: Where are those in the state?
Grace: Jones is in Ellisville, which is north of Hattiesburg. Carey is in Hattiesburg. It's not William Carey University.
ZIEGLER: And was that a decision to get away from New Iberia?
Grace: It was. A lot of it was, yeah. Going to Jones was. Carey really wasn't on my radar screen. Everything I took in high school was based on what LSU required, and I think I took everything other than trigonometry because I slept through Algebra 2 as a junior and had to take it again my senior year. But I also knew my habits. I would have been kicked out of LSU within a year. So, I was actually kind of scared to go to LSU, as much as I wanted to.
ZIEGLER: Are you talking partying?
Grace: Yes. Yes. Ages 16-18 was a blur.
ZIEGLER: Yeah. Yeah. LSU is sometimes known for that, for sure. Fantastic. Let's see, so you leave New Iberia, you go up to Mississippi, and you major in history, you said.
Grace: I ended up majoring in history. I declared my major when I got to Carey. Did cross over into biblical studies for a while, and ended up getting my minor in biblical studies, but my degree is in history.
ZIEGLER: This whole time, I'm correct in understanding, right, that you were not out as a trans woman.
Grace: No. I did not know the term transgender until probably 1995-96. I knew that things didn't work between mind and body, and I would act on that, in guilt. And there's a lot of religious guilt involved in that. I'm sure we'll get to that eventually. It really wasn't until, and this is kind of sad, I really did not get online until 1995, when I went to seminary. And that's when I learned the term "transgender" and started saying, "Okay, yeah, that's who I am."
ZIEGLER: So, you learned the term transgender while in seminary.
Grace: In seminary. The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the most conservative Southern Baptist seminary on the planet.
ZIEGLER: Where is that located?
Grace: Louisville, KY.
ZIEGLER: And yes, there's so much to talk about. I guess for the chronology, though, let me just back up to your undergraduate years.
Grace: Let's rewind.
ZIEGLER: You finished undergrad. Did you go straight to seminary after that?
Grace: I did. I did.
ZIEGLER: So, you left Mississippi to go to Kentucky.
Grace: I did. Graduated from Carey in 95 and started at Southern in 1995.
ZIEGLER: I see. Can you just talk a little bit about your decision to go to seminary? Maybe that's a good way for us to...
Grace: When I moved to Mississippi, I grew up Catholic, because growing up in the 70s in New Iberia, there was more Catholics than people. But always felt like there was more. And my family, after a while, my parents got divorced, we were pretty much nominal. My extended family, I had an uncle I was convinced was the Pope, but for me, I knew there was more in it. And when I got to Mississippi, I wound up in a Baptist Church, and in that Southern Baptist Church, I made my public profession of faith, my personal profession of faith. And about a year later, after going on a mission trip and having various opportunities in churches, I really felt like I was being, what we call, called to ministry.
And so, I started directing myself in that direction, knowing I was going to be involved in church work somehow. And since I was in a Southern Baptist Church, it was probably going to be related that way. Went to a Southern Baptist college, who gave me scholarship money for being a ministerial student, so I committed to serving within the Southern Baptist church. And actually, ironically, at that time, I went to Southern in Louisville, KY, Southern Seminary, because a year earlier Dr. Al Mohler had become president, and he brought this wave of changes. Because Southern was so liberal, he actually moved away to the right. And it's like, "Okay, well, because he's done that, I want to go there."
And that was kind of my mindset. Because I was actually trying... A lot of it was guilt from knowing that I didn't know how else to say it wasn't right, that I needed to try to fix myself. And I thought would do it, that going into ministry would do it, pastoring would do it, seminarian. You can't chase who you are out of you, basically.
ZIEGLER: Yeah. But it sounds like maybe you tried for a while.
Grace: Oh, I did, up until a few years ago. It took a lot of theological deconstruction for me to accept me, and it's still a work in progress.
ZIEGLER: I wonder if we could just talk a little bit about what that progress would be, if you don't mind. So, you went through seminary. Presumably you got a job. You're now a pastor. Is that right?
Grace: I've been pastoring since 2004. I've been here since 2010, 2009.
ZIEGLER: And that's what brought you to Calcasieu Parish.
Grace: It's what brought me. Yeah, after my dad died, I really felt like I wanted to be back closer to home. I was in Arkansas at the time, and we ended up back here. And it's close enough to home to be home, but still there's enough distance there that I'm happy with it.
ZIEGLER: And you say we came back.
Grace: I have a family. I do have a family.
ZIEGLER: So, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, I wonder would you be willing to talk about, again, that struggle. You've been a pastor since 200- Was it 4 you said?
Grace: I took my first full time church in 2004. My first ministry position was 20001, and it was a part time while I was in seminary.
ZIEGLER: Is there anything that you would want to say about the struggle between then and now?
Grace: Oh, yeah, I don't mind. No, because it's part of my story, I think. Until a few years ago, I thought I was the only one in this kind of position, and in my search and in my struggle, I discovered I'm not alone in this. And so their stories helped me, and maybe my story will help somebody else. Because I know I'm not alone.
ZIEGLER: Yes. I mean, speaking of your story helping other people, I know that you have a transition blog.
Grace: I do, yes.
ZIEGLER: Which I love. So, thank you for putting that out there.
Grace: Thank you. I have to admit it's cathartic to me. I want to go back and see how far I've come, but at the same time, I guess when I get behind a keyboard, the historian in me, I guess I can voice what I'm thinking on a keyboard.
ZIEGLER: It's very well written, and I hope it gets a lot of readership. It deserves it. But let me say, and you touched on this a little bit in your blog, and I wanted to, to whatever extent, again, you feel comfortable, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your family. So, you came out a couple of years ago.
Grace: I was out to myself. I'm not out at home. 26, 27 years ago, when my now wife and I first got together, I was sitting on her parents' couch in Cincinnati, OH. And she was a student up in Ohio, at a college that kind of leaned a little more left. Between that and people she worked with, she went on a very homophobic rant. And even though I wasn't struggling with my sexuality at that point, in the way I was not knowing I was transgender, I realized, "Okay, this is not anything I need to talk about. I just need to get fixed."
And I've struggled with that, and it's because I know my wife, because of stuff I've heard her say over the last 25 years, but also the last couple years, very transphobic. She and my son got into an argument right before Christmas because he thought she was transphobic about something. And so, for a long time, I hid myself away because I didn't want to lose my kids. My kids are my all, my everything. They're 19 and 23. They're still my babies, and I could not have imagined not having them in my life. My daughter, the oldest one, she is my world. I did not want to lose them forever. And so I hid myself away. I locked the closet tight.
ZIEGLER: Do they know? Have you talked to them about it?
Grace: No. No, I haven't. And this is the hardest part of this, the fact that these two hurricanes just totally screwed everything up for us. Because honestly, I expect the worst to happen. I hope for the best, but I expect the worst. And if the worst happens, if I come out at church, I'm not going to have a job. They're not even going to wait six weeks, like they did with that pastor up in Canada. I'll be fired on the spot. I'll lose my house, and I can't sell my house. You can't see it. I've got no walls on the North side, from hurricane damage. I owe more on this house than it's worth right now because of hurricane damage. And so I really imagined, when all this started last year, when I really started moving this direction, that all this will be taken care of. But COVID happened and then hurricanes happened, and any timetable I have is just totally gone.
ZIEGLER: So, I wonder, if you haven't talked to your kids, you mentioned that your son got in an argument with your wife because he perceived her as being transphobic. So, that was unprovoked from him.
Grace: It was unprovoked. She mentioned something that she saw on the news, the news reports about Eddie Izzard and her pronouns. And I'll give her credit, at least she used the right pronouns. But when she said the comment she made, he's a student at LaTECH. He turned around and said, "Mom, that was the most transphobic thing ever." And I just kind of snuck out because I did not need to be involved in that, at that time. And they worked it out.
My son, we tried pushing our kids to the right. They grew up in church. They did all the church programs, like reading group and children's ministries. And somehow he learned to think for himself. That actually makes me pretty proud.
Because he has a heart for justice. He has a heart for people. That really didn't come from us in a lot of ways.
ZIEGLER: That's what I was going to ask. I mean, I completely understand that you wouldn't want to hear maybe what your wife responded, but for him to have broached the subject on his own.
Grace: He made me proud. He's made me proud a lot, but that, just for the fact that... And he explained to her his views on justice, and that he does have friends who are gay, who are transgender, who are looked down on because they're minorities, and I couldn't have been more proud of him at that moment. Because we tried the "biblical" worldview approach with him, saying, "Okay, this is what you have to believe. If you're a follower of Jesus, you've got to believe this." And he says his faith is still there, he just comes at it from a lot more progressive point of view, and I'm fine with that. And I've encouraged him in that. I've encouraged him finding a more progressive church to be a part of, or progressive groups.
ZIEGLER: Speaking of progressive churches, I'll ask for your forgiveness for my ignorance, but would you be able to go? Would that be a thing that you can do, to switch to a more progressive?
Grace: Yes, I can. I think I want a break from ministry. I want a break from pastoring. I'm going to take the civil service exam in February. I was going to do it this past month, but a man in our community died. He was the heartbeat of this community, so I went to the funeral instead. I'm going to take the civil service exam. I hope some of my work and experience will help within the children and family services.
There are progressive churches out there that are welcoming and affirming to the LGBTQ+ community. There's not a whole lot in Southwest Louisiana, though. Maybe Lafayette, definitely New Orleans and Baton Rouge, Houston for sure. Here, you might be welcomed. I don't know about affirming. But I think I need a break from ministry, and I think for the long-term, I'll probably end up back in churches. I can't imagine not doing anything else. Even with my frustrations with the church in the last four years, I imagine not seeing the hope that should be there. Maybe I'm naive. I don't know. But that's just who I am.
ZIEGLER: I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the evacuations with the hurricane. So, y'all did get hit twice, very hard.
Grace: We did.
ZIEGLER: And you evacuated both times, and you sort of waved to a part of your house that's just actually right off screen, so I couldn't quite see it. So, your house is still damaged from the hurricanes?
Grace: It's still pretty damaged. We finally got a roof after two months. We had to fight the insurance. Our house, it's 100 years old now, and the house we bought is about 100 yards from the church where I'm at. The tin off the church roof beat the crap out of my house. I still have green paint from the tin that hit the front of the house, and it tore up a lot of our decking. It's that old tongue and groove decking from 100 years ago, and our insurance like, "Just cut away what's broken. Put new wood up there." And that doesn't work. I see your eyes. That doesn't work.
And so we actually called Calcasieu Parish Inspector Cain and told her, "That decking needs to be replaced. All of it." So, after about two months, we finally got the roof put on. We've had to do a second round. We actually had to do water remediation even during Beta, because it just was a rain event, but it rained all over my house. I had no roof, and the tarps weren't holding. And so, after Delta, water remediation came in. They had to take out all the northern walls. We'd already gotten rid of some of the ceilings that were fallen. We lost ceiling tiles in three rooms. They took down the drywall that was in my ceiling in my bathroom and kitchen ceilings. But all the north walls is down to the shiplap. Most of my kitchen, the top six feet of walls is gone, and in my laundry room, and it also damaged some of the drywall when they took that out.
ZIEGLER: Yeah, 2020 was a rough year.
Grace: Yeah. It really sucked.
ZIEGLER: I wonder what you think of this question, though, because I've had the good fortune to talk to several people who came out either to themselves or out to their family, friends, etc. during 2020, and some of that is because of their own personal journey, for sure, but a significant portion of folks have indicated in some way that just the external events of the year add the appropriate amount of stress or the appropriate perspective to sort of push that through. And I wonder, your thoughts about that, if you think the events of the world happening around you has any effect on your journey at all.
Grace: I think so, because we realize just how delicate things are, and with the last administration, I've become political. Now, I used to be a lifelong Republican, understand. The hatred of the last administration, I think, probably pushed people to be like, "Okay, I've got to do this now before I don't have the freedom to. I actually, in spite of how crappy 2020 was, February I started on spiro, and then in July/August, I actually started on e patches. And so, the hurricane was August 25, 26, 27. We evacuated the day before. That was the source of sanity for me.
Because this is so weird. During that time was probably some of the worst I've ever experienced because I was trapped in guy mode, even though I lived there, at least had my outs from time to time where I can be me. But for those six weeks, two months, 2 1/2 months, I think the hormone therapy is often what kept my head above water. My gosh, I cried so much. I don't think I cried more than I did last year. And my therapist, when we finally got together after the hurricanes, but I understood the urgency to want to get that done in the next year, and I really wish I could have gone all out. And it is hard, especially in my position. Our church has got it, and I'm fighting an obligation of, "Do I need to make sure this is rebuilt or not?"
ZIEGLER: Are the sermons remote y'all are doing?
Grace: Most of them. Small town. I have a lot of friends. I actually got offered three sanctuaries we can meet in, a Methodist Church, Pentacostal Church and the other was a messianic group that meets on Friday. And so, I would have preferred that one, but that was 10 miles out, and people were like, "That's too far." I'm like, "I rode my bike up there. That's not that far." But the Pentacostal pastor is right around the corner. He and I are really good friends. We use their facility at 9:00 AM. And it's been smaller crowns, but I'm still doing online. The last two weeks we've been only online because there is a lot of COVID cases in town, and I have two church members. And I was safer than sorry. I don't want to stand before God one day and have to explain why I thought it was more important to worship than to worry about people's health.
ZIEGLER: Which has become a political stance, unfortunately.
Grace: I've had a lot of political discussions. I've had to remove a lot of people from my life because of that. One was just right after New Year's. Didn't like me saying there's no debating with me over this. We need to wear masks. It's that simple. While a lot of people were dying and a lot of people getting sick. I was supposed to preach at a Presbyterian Church on Christmas Eve and didn't because they had so many COVID outbreaks.
ZIEGLER: So, 2020. It's definitely a time that a lot of our perspectives have changed. I appreciate everything that you've said, and I know that these have been a lot of emotional topics. I wonder if we could just say a little bit. You hinted at this just a little bit. For everyone listening in the future, this is January 21, 2021. We now have a new president.
Grace: Yes.
ZIEGLER: So, I sort of wondered. You said that you're more political now than you were, much less right-leaning perhaps, than you were before. Biden is probably not most people's first choice, but he is not Trump. There's been the first out transgender woman is taking a federal position. He mentioned the transgender community in at least one speech that I saw, perhaps. So, I just kind of wonder your thoughts, if you'd be willing to just sort of talk about whether or not you see clouds parting, if you see anything brighter in the future.
Grace: I think so. Well, and one of his executive orders yesterday was reversing Trump stances on transgender rights. I actually read it this morning, and I was almost in tears reading it. I do feel a little more hopeful. And like I said, I was president in my College Republicans. I was a card carrying Republican through the 90s. I was an elected member of our County Republican Committee when we lived in Arkansas, and what started messing with my head was actually, believe it or not, the Tea Party, and I started thinking a lot more libertarian. And 2012 was last time I voted in a Republican primary because Ron Paul's the only one who didn't make me throw up in my mouth.
And a lot was happening theologically at that time that started moving more to the left as well. But seeing what has taken place over the last four years made me realize that religious bias is just as hateful as any other type of hate, and being embedded in it for so long I guess I just became numb to it, and the process of self acceptance, I guess finally opened my eyes, and I hate to say that it took that long, 40+ years, but me accepting myself started helping me realize, "Okay, that's just wrong, what I have been in."
And I realized there were times that I preached that in trying to protect myself. But yeah, with Biden, I think there's hope in the fact that, yes, not only is he talking the talk, but he's proving it. I mean, I was Buttigieg all the way. But I'm part of the 80 million that just did not want to vote for Donald Trump because he needed to go and he should have never been there because he was like, "I'll hate anyone." He showed the most hate for Barack Obama and people liked that, especially Christians. He showed the most hatred for Hillary Clinton, and because of that, people jumped on that Trump Train.
And so Joe Biden, as much as I don't like him, is a nice guy, and I don't think he's as driven by hate. And that's encouraging, that the hate filled rhetoric, and more acceptance is going to be there. Because I've got a lot of life left to yet live, but there's also another generation behind me that needs to know that they're loved, they're welcomed, they're accepted. Because for so long, I was unaccepted, mostly of myself, and it scared me to want to come out.
ZIEGLER: I also want to ask you about your ability to form community since you've come out to yourself. So, we first connected on Facebook.
Grace: Yes.
ZIEGLER: Through the Louisiana Trans Advocates group. I wonder if you would just willing to talk a little bit about that, maybe the role of that organization, or the role of the Internet.
Grace: Well, the Louisiana Trans organization helped me finally get to a point where I can get some help because I didn't know groups like that existed. I set up that Facebook page just to see what's out there, because I knew from my Facebook page, my male persona, that you can find resources. As evil as social media is, it can be a great tool. So I set up the Dani page and just started searching, found the LTA page and through that, actually, I've made some really good friends. One lives in Lake Charles and she has just been an amazing friend, helping me get the gender care treatment. Even the electrolysis I started just this past month, she's been central in helping me get that.
But like I mentioned earlier, I found out that I wasn't alone in this. I met a former pastor who grew up in New Orleans, who grew up in a Catholic family, found personal faith in the Baptist Church, and when she was 50, she came out as trans. I thought I was alone, and I've met other people along the way who either were in ministry or going into ministry. And an amazing woman in Mexico I'm friends with, Andrea, she's currently in my position. She's a pastor and she's finally coming out, and she's got a lot further along than I am in that, that her family knows and she's gotten the ultimatum from her wife, either me or you're trans.
And so that worries me a little bit, but I've actually met some friends that know me. I was scared to death. I wouldn't have done this a year ago. I wouldn't have done this year ago. I wouldn't want people to hear my voice. And then that pastor I mentioned, Jennifer, she made me call her, and she and I spoke. I met her in person when I went through Nashville, and so it's given me a new community because I know the community I'm part of, I'm on the outside, in the Evangelical circle. I'm so disgusted by what I've seen in the Southern Baptist Convention, Louisiana Baptist Convention, that I feel like I'm on the outside anyway. I just show up and that's about it.
But I'm discovering a community, and probably because we have such similar stories, where, while we do love in spite of who we are, what we've done, what we believe, as an Evangelical Christian, automatically, if you don't believe like me, you're a heretic, and I'm not going to let you into my circle. I've discovered a new circle, where you can still be an evangelical and still be welcomed. You might not like what we say, but you're welcome. And so that's been a world of difference. And as I say, evil as social media is, I'm thankful for it right now, at this point in my life.
ZIEGLER: Yeah. That was very well said. I suppose just in closing... Well, before that, I should say I think we all look forward to a chance to see people in person more often.
Grace: I'm getting to that point where I actually crave seeing people. And I've met a few people in person, and again, a year ago, I wouldn't have done it. And as I come to, it's a lot more self acceptance, and that has just been a world of difference for me, is just getting to a point where I realized I'm okay. I'm not broken. I'm not screwed up. I don't need to be fixed. And what is broken is the fact that I was allowing myself to stay where I was miserable. And hormones have been amazing, by the way. It's allowed me to feel me.
ZIEGLER: Yeah. That's beautiful. I wonder, in closing, if you would like to say anything. So again, this is recorded, most likely will be kept if you choose to donate it. So, if you can imagine somebody watching this in 30 years, is there some final thought you'd like to leave them with, with what it means to be trans for you, right now, again in this time and in this place, here in the early 21st century in Southwest Louisiana?
Grace: Self acceptance is a beautiful thing. The journey is long and hard but it's worth it. I think better days are coming. I'm thankful that future generations don't have to grow up in the ignorant side. If I had the resources today, 30 years ago, when I was in college, I think my life would be different. Take advantage of what's out there. Take advantage of the resources. Take advantage of the knowledge base. Take advantage of those who have gone through the struggle and the journey, and let them pour into you. And when it's all said and done, just be you. Be yourself. Be real and true to yourself. The statement I've learned to accept, and it took a lot of deconstruction theologically, that is true for me, live your truth. Because if you try living another truth, you're going to hate life. You're going to be miserable.