Interviewee: Emmie Saux

Interviewer: Sophia Ziegler

Transcriber: Sophia Ziegler

May 16, 2020

[Interview transcript has been slightly edited for length and clarity.]

Sophia Ziegler: Alright, so just by way of opening up this is Sophia Ziegler sitting down with Emmie Saux. Emmie is genderqueer and non binary and uses they/them pronouns.

Today is May 16, 2020 and we're meeting remotely using Zoom because the Covid-19 pandemic is still very scary. So Emmie, as we discussed, I'm just going to sort of walk through this just sort of read a paragraph real fast.

So this interview is part of the Louisiana Trans Oral History Project. The goal is to gather real world examples of what it means to be trans in Louisiana here in the early 21st century. And to donate these interviews to the T. Harry Williams Oral History Center at LSU and to put them, in part or in whole, on the project’s website.

Please know that you can stop the interview at any time and if you have any questions about this or anything else you can reach out to me at any time. Please also know that these interviews are a joint project between me and you. So you'll have a chance to review the transcripts before they’re donated. And any portion of them can be de-identified or restricted as you deem necessary. Do you have any questions about that? Does that sound good? 

Emmie Saux: Sounds good. 

Ziegler:  Fantastic. Well, with that preamble out of the way, Emmie, I was hoping we could just start at the beginning. Could tell us where and when you were born.

Saux: I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana at the Women's Hospital December 29, 1992 around two o'clock in the morning.

Ziegler: And how long did you live in Baton Rouge?

Saux: I think till I was two or three and then we moved to the middle of nowhere. My dad is a doctor and did a rural doctors program to pay off his med school bills. So we lived in Labadieville which is outside of Thibodaux. And then I think I was maybe four or five when we moved to New Orleans.

Ziegler: And so did you spend any time in Labadieville?

Saux:  I did. Not very much, though. I think we were there for a year or two.

Ziegler: And did he study medicine at Baton Rouge? Was that why he was here?

Saux: No. He studied in New Orleans. I'm not sure why we moved to Baton Rouge, but it might have had to do with his training. So he and my mom moved there for a couple of years and then had me and then my sister was born when we lived in Thibodaux or outside Thibodaux. So she was born in Thibodaux.

Saux: That's the closest hospital to Labadieville. It might not be any more, but it was.

Ziegler: So your father's a doctor. Still a doctor? What's his specialty?

Saux: He's an oncologist. So cancer. Oncologists are trained to do hematology as well though, so it's cancer and blood disorders. Those are closely related topics.

Ziegler: And when he was doing his, I guess working around the state, was it more places than Labadieville? 

Saux: I think it was that it was centered around that area and might have been some of the other small towns around there, but it was mostly in Labadieville.

Ziegler: And what does your mother do? 

Saux: When I was little she was an editor and writer. Now she does a little bit of something different and is what is she? I think she’s a C.O.O. maybe like an operating officer or something like that. She kind of did the editing thing until she could get us through elementary school and then work on her master's degree and then has been able to move up from there.

Ziegler: A C.O.O. at a company? What type of organization? 

Saux: At a Catholic organization. She works in Washington DC and lives in Alexandria, Virginia. But that's, I was an adult before she moved there.
Ziegler: I see. And so did your mom and dad started off in New Orleans? So they both from there?

Saux: They Are Oh, my mom was born out of state, but they both grew up here.

Ziegler: And so you don't have any memories of Baton Rouge, I take it, from your first couple of years?

Saux: No. I was told the house was haunted, but I don't remember.

Ziegler: Oh really. Do you know what part of town it was in? 

Saux: On Oleander off of, is that Government right there?

Ziegler: Oh, yeah.

Saux: Kind of close to LSU campus. Yeah, I don't know what that's called.

Ziegler: Mid City? or Maybe the Garden District? Yeah, it's a nice place for haunted house. And so you got to New Orleans around the age three or four 

Saux: four or five. 

Ziegler: What schools did you attend?

Saux: I went to St. Paul's Episcopal school. No, sorry. I went to St Dominic's Catholic school until third grade, and then St. Paul's. I had to do a year in Covington because of Katrina when I was in the seventh grade. Um, and then I came back to St. Paul's for eighth grade and then went to Ben Franklin for high school

Ziegler: And I'm so I'm very interested. You know what, what we're trying to do with this project is really get a sense of what it's like to be trans in Louisiana. So when you were in high school, was there a big queer presence there? 

Saux: No, not exactly. Um, but it's kind of we joke about this because almost everyone I was friends with in high school are now queer. But we weren't then. One of my friends was out. And she was only out to us. She wasn't out to everyone at school or her parents. Um, and then there were maybe like two gay men who were out in my high school class or gay boys, I guess, then. And everyone else just was like, I don't know if we kind of knew we were weird and figured it out later. But we had no idea. I don't think

Ziegler: And then so you said Katrina hit when you were in seventh grade. So you went to spend, you did an academic year in Covington? I wonder, could you just sort of say, and I'm just jumping backwards because I sort of missed the chance before. Can you say a little bit about what that was like? So that was obviously a very big event in your life.

Saux: Yes, um, And we so we were already kind of in a weird spot right before Katrina hit. My parents divorced when I was in -- I was maybe five or six um so shortly after we came to New Orleans they divorced. And then my dad remarried and right before Hurricane Katrina we were living in a house in Metairie and the house had black mold that the previous owners did not disclose. And apparently repainting with latex paint on the wall can wake up mold. I don't really know, but my step mom repainted the house. And then we had black mold crawling the walls. So we had to move out right before Katrina hit. So we were already kind of displaced, but in the city. And then we evacuated. And because of my dad being a doctor. We evacuated with family, some cousins of ours, and then like later reconnected with all of my parents. So it's kind of wild because I was not …  I mean, I was 12 and with cousins that we were somewhat close with but not really. And it was probably five or so days before I saw my parents again.

Ziegler:  What does your stepmother do?

Saux: So she's a florist now. But back then, she was a stay at home mom.

Ziegler: So did y'all move back into the house in Metairie?

Saux: No, we never did. Yeah, my dad, he had to pay for a lot of repairs on it before he could sell it, but I think by then, he was just like, this is a wash and he had worked on the North Shore for a long time. So it was kind of a good excuse for him to just move over there and not have to commute to work. So he just was like, let's fix the AC system, get rid of the mold and sell the house. So that's what we did and he’s lived in Covington since then.

Ziegler: You go to college,  is this right? Which college did you go to?

Saux: So I jumped around a little bit, but I did go to LSU and that's where I finished.

Ziegler: Do you mind talking about jumping around? Which other schools you went to? 

Saux: Sure. I started college at a university in Germany, and I thought it was going to do that. They do three years instead of four and you take like 18 hours a semester or something insane. I think being so far away from family and the stress of that was a little too much. So I did a semester there. And then I came home and because I came home as kind of a last minute decision I ended up at UNO for a semester. Just because it was right down the road and they accepted me like a week after I applied. So I did UNO for a semester. And then I decided I wanted to go to LSU because I still kind of wanted the away-from-home college experience, but not as far away as across the globe.So yeah, I finished at LSU with a bachelor's in psychology

Ziegler: So again thinking about the the scenarios that you found yourself, was there a significant queer presence at LSU while you while you were there.

Saux: I was still straight like I still thought I was straight all through college, and was a semester into … or two semesters into grad school before I came out.

Ziegler: Oh, OK. I see.

Saux: Yeah. So I was a little bit older. 23, 24. I had queer friends, but it wasn't. I mean, it's not that sense of community until you necessarily know that that's also you. But yeah, I wasn't involved with campus organizations around that or anything.

Ziegler: What were the years that you were at LSU?

Saux: 2012 till 2015. And then I did my Masters there as well. So 2015-2017 I was in the MSW program.

Ziegler: So you went straight to graduate school after undergrad? I'm curious about your thoughts on comparing and contrasting living in New Orleans with Baton Rouge. So at this time, you still identify as straight or, um … yeah. 

Saux: Yeah

Ziegler: You lived in Baton Rouge before, but you were very small obviously, and then you spent a lot of time in New Orleans both I guess in the city proper and on the North Shore and then you get to Baton Rouge. Do you have any recollection of your immediate thoughts of the area.

Saux: So I'd moved into an off campus apartment like a block from campus with a friend. And I was freaked out. At first it was a scary place to me but .. it wasn't just the transition to Baton Rouge. It was also the the transition around like the school in Germany was 1000 people, or one to 2000, I think, and the school at UNO is maybe 10,000 people and then LSU is like 30 to 40,000 students. So you walk onto campus the first day and it's the most people I've ever seen in my life probably. That is more striking about the move at first. I also lived north of campus, which I think people kind of consider like a bad area, quote unquote, especially the farther north you go it's impoverished and higher crime rate, they say, you know, we can talk about the pieces of, like, why is crime higher in one place, and is it about police patrolling it more because they think it's higher crime or whatever but north of campus gets a bad rap. And I had never lived somewhere where I didn't feel safe outside of my house before like walking around on the street and I wouldn't have walked around at night outside of my apartment, but so that was kind of a different shift for me.

Ziegler: Out of curiosity, do you happen to remember what street you were on.

Saux: Yeah, I was on … What's that main drag of campus like just the one that comes out the north gate, what's that street?

Ziegler: Highland? 

Saux: Yeah I was on Highland at Campus Crossing. So like down the block from Canes across the street from I think it's like a CVS or Walgreens in a shopping center. I mean, I don't know that it's that bad of a neighborhood, it is very different than where I grew up in New Orleans where it's like the houses are a little spread out. There's a lot of green space and like where my mom lived there weren't very many young children, either. So that was kind of a weird experience that we lived kind of isolated from other kids and a lot of ways. It's a lot of older people in Lake Vista.

Ziegler: So you finish undergraduate in 2015 and chose to stick around Baton Rouge for a Masters of social work.

Saux: I lived in New Orleans for that but commuted to Baton Rouge for my master's

Ziegler: I understand. Okay. So you move back to New Orleans after undergrad and then you started the masters in social work program. Can you talk about why you chose to do that?

Saux: Yeah. So I thought I was going to be a doctor when I started medical school or started college. Not medical school. I haven’t gone to medical school. Started college. I thought I was going to go into medicine and I realized at some point along the way that I hate most sciences, other than biology and that it just wasn't going to be for me. And so I was trying to find what that thing was going to be iand psychology was the coolest class I had taken. So it's just like, let's just switch to that, there's a lot of options. And then as I got closer to graduation I looked at Marriage and Family Counseling as a master's, the MSW program, and continuing grad school in psychology and I just thought that the MSW seemed like the broadest thing like social workers are all over the place and do all kinds of different jobs. So I just thought, if I do this, I won't ever be bored, you know? 

Ziegler: Were there any people in your program that were very influential that really stood out to you.

Saux: I have two very good friends from grad school that I'm in touch with a lot. The first woman I dated in grad school. We're not in touch. That's an ex I don't talk to, but that's okay. And then we've talked a little bit about this. There's a professor, whose name is Elaine Maccio in the MSW program and she helped to start the LGBT minor at LSU. And I took her LGBT class right as I was coming out of the closet. So that was kind of a good, you know, social work class to learn about other queer people but also learning a lot about me and my history as a queer person that I didn't know I had

Ziegler: So it was during this program, Around the second semester that you start to identify as not straight … 

Saux: Right

Ziegler: … in some configuration. Do you feel comfortable talking about that? 

Saux: Yeah. So I had a boyfriend from 2012 when I went to LSU. When I moved up there right before that … or I guess like a semester before that we had met at UNO and started dating. We dated all through college and into grad school. And when I lived in New Orleans I lived with him and another couple that we're still both very good friends with. And we're still very close as friends. But I was like, I think I'm bisexual and I said that. And one of my roommates was fairly open about ... I don't know that she would identify as bisexual … but is open to the fact that she's attracted to women. She's married to a man so I think she is kind of di but doesn't really talk about it that much sort of thing. But, you know, “Orange is the New Black” was the big show then and she would talk about how cute she thought Poussey was on the show and it was like a whole thing. Um, so then I was like, oh, I maybe I'm bisexual. Because I think women are cool and some of them are very attractive, and I still was pretty binary in my thinking of people's gender at the time. I didn't know very many transgender people then. But it's funny because there are people that I know I knew then that are now out. Does that make sense?

Ziegler: Oh yeah, totally makes sense. 

Saux: Like I knew them and I was friends with them, but we all had no idea or it was something that we kind of kept buried back there. so I came out as bi and then I eventually talked to the boyfriend about doing like an open relationship thing because I thought we were headed toward getting married to each other. And I just kind of want to experience life in that way. And then I started dating the woman from grad school and then that became kind of a mess like we were a mess as a thing. And then that made a mess in my current relationship with my boyfriend and then I was just like, I think I'm gay. So my boyfriend and I broke up and still lived together for a while and then not too long after, and this was not planned. I met my now wife.

Ziegler: That's great. Do you have a coming out story, I guess to your family, that you would feel comfortable sharing?

Saux: Sure. So I came out to my dad and kind of a silly way because I knew he wouldn't care. He's an accepting person. So it's just like I can do something fun to come out to my dad. So I bought a giant rainbow unicorn balloon from Party City and I showed up to have a drink with him at a bar Uptown called Cooter Browns. And  I handed the balloon to him and he is such a goofball that he just said, Oh, cool. And then just kept talking about his day. And I was like, they'll like this. There's a reason I gave you a balloon, weirdo. So I came back to it a few minutes later and said, hey, there's a reason I brought a balloon today I want to let you know that I'm gay. And so, that went well … So my ex's name ... My ex is now my best friend ... His name is Joseph, and he said does Joseph know? Like did you come out to the man you were sleeping next to you before you told me? And it's like, yeah, obviously.

Saux: Um, and then I came out to my mom in a more private conversation we had gone to lunch. And I was very nervous about telling her, and I told her in the car at the end of the whole hanging out thing and I was just like, look, I got to tell you a gay and she said some kind of strange things. I think my mom … I think my mom's accepting now. I think back then she was trying her best to be accepting but it was something very new to her and I guess I can remember a couple of incidents as a kid of being kind of, I don't know that I did anything gay, but I feel like I must have to kind of get her to say something back about like I think she specifically said one time that we're not going to have any lesbians in this house and I didn't remember it until much later. And then I was like oh crap. I have to come out to my mom and she said no lesbians in the house. But I think because I was an adult and because she kind of knew something was going on. By the time I told her it was okay. And she said something about how I had been dressing differently. So she thought maybe I was queer because I was dressing differently. And then I think she also maybe sensed a little bit of distance between us, in a way, because she would ask, like, Oh, what did you do last night? and I was probably at a gay bar. And so I wasn't gonna tell my mom was that a gay bar. And then a lot of my friends were starting to look more and more queer and so it was like what's going on. So I think she kind of knew, in a way, but then even if people think they know you have to tell them, I think. That's the world we live in is you still kind of have to come out. 

So those are my coming out to my parents things. I came out to my sister, a little bit before them. I guess I'll all of my sisters, but not my brothers and that's just like a comfort closeness kind of thing. I felt closer to my sisters

Ziegler: I love the balloon.

Saux: Thank you

Ziegler: That’s really great. You were coming out to them as gay… I'm trying to phrase this in a way that makes sense … so you were exploring bisexuality before, I guess, identifying as as gay. Did you talk to them about the bisexuality or did you just wait.

Saux: I just waited. And then now I identify myself as queer. And I think that's just like an evolution of … I'm not this binary gendered person so lesbian doesn't fit the same way it did. And then also recognizing other people's gender identity and expression that I'm not necessarily binary in that either. Where other non binary people are attractive to me at times or, you know, depending on the person, and all of that, right, like sexuality is complicated. I think if “queer sexual” was a term that's probably what it is that I'm like usually most attractive to other queer people. But I think the underlying thing is that I would be open to dating people other than cis men. I think that comes down to like an emotionality where, at times, I'll find some men attractive. Like, I think, Joseph Gordon Levitt is hot and if I saw him in real life I would lose my mind. But, There's this emotional depth to people who either were assigned male at birth, and had to like figure out their gender is something else and do that kind of inward thinking and then people who were socialized as girls I think have that depth in in the same or different way where it's just … I just found that cis men are never excited about things and like I would have an emotion and like bless my ex, but he didn't have feelings in the same way. I'd be like, I'm so excited to go to the movies. And he's like, yeah, it's gonna be cool. And I'm like, I just can't do this. I think it's, yeah, it's that emotionality, it's that willingness to be vulnerable and talk to each other about things that, unfortunately, society isn't giving cis men these days. And I hope that changes for them at some point and that they can feel their feelings out loud too but that's what's attractive to me more long-term in a person,other than the first seeing a person in, oh, they're cute kind of thing.

Ziegler: From our conversations before, and from our pre-interview form, you’ve indicated that you identify as genderqueer and non binary. While we're on the topic, can you just say a little bit about each one of those and how how they differ and how they might overlap? 

Saux: I don't know that they do differ. I think I like the wording of genderqueer. Something with that just sits better, I guess. I think of it as an identity under the non binary umbrella. But non binary seems to be the new age word for that. Does that make sense? So like when I was figuring out that I wasn't a cis woman anymore or wasn't, I guess ever,  I don't know how that works … that's something that in my brain, I'm like, I was, I felt that way for a long time. But then I realized I wasn't and then the whole world opened up. But I think because that's the big word right now is non binary. And that's what you see all over the internet and everywhere else. So then that's kind of ... I came out that way, but I think the word genderqueer feels affirming in a different way.

Ziegler: Do you remember when you first heard either one of those? For some of us, it's sort of a big liberating moment.

Saux: Yes. I, this was not the first time I heard the word, but someone from my high school was transitioning in a non binary way. And I think my mom found out about it somehow and asked me about that person. And so then that was just a new thing to me that you would take testosterone, but not identify as a man. So I was like, I think that was kind of an aha, that it's a thing that exists, but it didn't feel like me yet. And then actually the the first transgender person I knew in my life was Dylan, who's the President of LTA, we went to high school together and a little bit of elementary school. So that was another thing that my mom knew about before me somehow because my mom is acquaintances with Dylan's dad. So then it was like Dylan came out and Dylan's dad knew about it and somehow my mom found out about it through Dylan's dad, talking to him at the gym or whatever. And then that's how I figured out And I was like, oh, I went to school with Dylan. Yeah. I told him that recently. I don't know that he knew that before. I said something like, you're the first trans person I knew you know

Ziegler: And for the benefit of the interview, LTA is the Louisiana Trans Advocates.

Saux: Right.

Ziegler: So your current career. Could you tell us about what you do now?

Saux: Yes, I'm a social worker working as a sexual assault advocate. I have a full time job and a part time job. At my full time job, I'm with the Louisiana Foundation Against Sexual Assault. We call it LaFASA for short. I'm a Training and Technical Assistance Coordinator there so I do a lot of training other advocates on how to be the best they can be. But I work also with nurses and [dog barks] I'm so sorry. Nurses and students at schools, I’m trying to think. It's across the board that people will ask us to come in and talk about things. I talked to a school of students learning to be truckers like to drive semis. They wanted somebody to come talk about sexual assault during Domestic Violence Awareness Month. So that was kind of one of the weirder ones, weirder requests, I’ve gotten because usually, it's more allied professionals and this was a very different environment than that.

And then my part time job. I'm with STAR which is a sexual assault Center in New Orleans, we actually have two here. STAR stands for Sexual Trauma Awareness and Response and they are in New Orleans, Baton Rouge, and Alexandria. I do part time medical advocacy with them, which right now is, I mean, normally I go into a hospital and sit with somebody if they're reporting or having evidence collected. There's a whole offering of services immediately after a sexual assault and it's up to each person what they want to do. But a lot of times it's an evidence collection kit, medications for prophylaxis for STIs and pregnancy, and sometimes reporting to the police. So right now survivors when they show to the hospital are given the option to call us on the phone. And no one has called me. Yet. I don't know that they're going in for kits. And if they are, they're not calling us on the phone, which is, I think, understandable. Just thinking about the logistics of, let's say you're there in the middle of the night and this person shows up and says, I'm here to sit with you if you want me to sit with you through this whole thing. And you're like yeah, great. This person's in front of me, I can see them. I'm not waking them up to come out here. They're already here. Versus like it's 3am. Do you want to call this person you don't know to talk about this? I think it's just got a different feel, but I've been doing hotline advocacy to kind of supplement, I guess. So that we're still able to work with survivors and keep up our safety planning skills and all of that.

Ziegler: So that's a Covi-19 modification, Is what you're describing?

[dog jumps on Emmie’s lap]

Ziegler: Whoa, who is this? Who do we have here?

Saux: Oh, this is Ruby.

Ziegler:: Hey Ruby

Saux: Ruby’s my puppy. I have two puppies. But Ruby was the one we got as a little baby her brother we got when he was about 10 months so. Oh, it's okay. I was just to say they're both very attached and I'm not surprised that she popped up here.

Ziegler: Oh, so have you been doing this work since you got out of graduate school? Was this something that you started while you were in graduate school?

Saux: So I got trained as an advocate in my second year of grad school, so I was doing the hospital advocacy piece a little bit in grad school and in the summer after I graduated. And I was a volunteer with them until the July after I graduated, then  they hired me as part time. And it took me a while to find a full time job I liked. So I didn't start working until November.

I'm glad I had family support in that I had my my mom and dad kind of financially helping and you know my then girlfriend, of course, too. I lived with her and I paid half the rent with my parents' help, but she did a lot of the like …  if we wanted to go to a movie or dinner together. She was paying for it kind of stuff. That was great that I had so much support around that and then I finally started that job. And that's been wonderful. So I'll be with them three years in November.

Ziegler: Do you feel that your gender identity sort of helped you move in this direction? Do you feel like that informs the work that you do in any way?

Saux: I think it informs the work that I want to do one day.  I kind of see myself going the direction of therapy with a very trans and trauma lens. Unfortunately, trans people don't report sexual violence at the same rate as cis people. I think it's just you know trauma around medical and police. As well as, I don't know, not everybody knows what's out there in terms of options after a sexual assault, or they just don't want to talk about it ever again. I know that it's something that affects our community a lot. So I think that that's where I'm headed in the future,  to be available to those people to do kind of one on one trauma counseling. Yeah, I mean, that's like if someone asks me to present on something and it doesn't specify. I always want to talk about queer people. I think it's my it's the most interesting topic. It's an easy topic to discuss with my work, just because it is more prevalent with queer people. And there's some really interesting stuff around, like, bisexual women are at some of the highest rates of interpersonal and sexual violence and I could talk all day about why, you know? Like what is it about bisexual women that is causing this. Trans people are at, I think, around the same rate or a slightly higher rate than bisexual women but those are the two targeted communities. And so it's kind of an interesting thing to ponder and discuss  what are all of the different facets of that. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's, it's an interesting intersection in my work. I also think my work and being around other like queer woke quote unquote people is kind of how I figured out my identity more. I was non-conforming for a good bit before I knew I was genderqueer and non binary and then meeting other people who use they/them  pronouns and being in spaces where you're asked your pronouns. I think also helped feed that where I was like, I don't think she/her is right, doesn't feel right. So, you can do more of that thinking

Ziegler: Definitely. So in addition to your two jobs you currently run the New Orleans non binary support group.

Saux: I do.

Ziegler: So can you tell us a little bit about that?

Saux: Yeah, it's a once monthly support group for non binary people in New Orleans. I have it open to support people as well. Just because I think that that helps people attend for the first time. I host it at a yoga studio actually. A space that was available to me to host it

Ziegler: And now they're they're hosted online again for Covid reasons

Saux: Now they’re on Zoom. Yeah. 

Ziegler: And how long have you been active in this? 

Saux: I think I've been hosting it for over six months if I'm remembering correctly. A nd I was attending groups for maybe four or five months before that.

Ziegler: And so this is also through the Louisiana Trans Advocates.

Saux: Right.

Ziegler: And are you active that organization, and other ways?

Saux: Oh yeah, not an official capacity. I think their board applications will be up again soon and I plan to apply this year to be on the board, but  I try to attend support groups. I think now that I host one I'm worse at attending groups, but I need to try to do that more often. Because it's definitely different. Even if you're not acting as a therapist in your role of support group leader, it's more about coordinating the space and presenting the guidelines and rules to everybody. But there's still, you end up being kind of support in that space. And so going to a meeting is still a good thing to do. Um, but I also have been involved in some of their policy stuff and I try to go to the capital whenever I can. To  be there, show my face, make it clear that there are a lot of people who want rights for trans people, or just sometimes it's even just an LGBT specific law. And I'm hoping that those trans sports bills just get knocked down. But if they do end up getting heard. I'll be there for that for sure.

Ziegler: And these are the bills for restricting … Could you say a little bit about them?

Saux: Yeah

Ziegler: For the sake of future listeners.

Saux: Yeah, so there are two bills right now a House Bill and a Senate Bill in Louisiana. Basically their goal is to keep trans kids out of sports. But the way it's written is that any adult pretty much could ask that any child that they see as gender non conforming, go to the doctor to be examined, so that a doctor can decide what their gender is to be able to help have them participate in sports on the right team. “Right” in their eyes and I just think it's sexually violent to ask that kids go to the doctor to have their genitals examined when they don't need to. I think it's also obviously going to target girls more than boys, and one of the bills I think is even called the Girls and Women in Sports Bill. And they're trying to present it as a way to protect girls and women. There's so much that goes into like, the trans around sports issue of, well, what if they're better at sports or what if they're worse at sports or whatever. And I think in high school and middle school and whatever sports are about play and they’re about fun and connecting with other children and making friends. And so it shouldn't matter. I think that the kids should pick the team that they feel most comfortable on and a girl who wants to wear pants to school shouldn't be questioned about that because she could be cis and just wants to wear pants for goodness sake, and they can send her to the doctor. And that just seems silly. And then something that I hadn't thought about before until now is thinking about how that could affect children with less financial resources. That, you know, going to the doctor can be a privilege for some and even with Medicaid I assume you still pay copays and stuff like that. Or if you want medicine at the doctor that's still going to cost money. So I can see a lot of poor kids’ parents just saying, Okay, no, you're not going to play sports, if we have to go see the doctor about it again. 

Ziegler: There were two bills moving their way through the Louisiana legislature and they're both on hold now, again, because of Covid and the capital got shut down.  And these are, as you know, just by way of background, similar to other states who are doing very similar bills so it doesn't seem to be tied to any specific concerns to what's happening in Louisiana.

Saux: Right.

Ziegler: Okay, I wanted to ask you about your religious life, if you have one, if you're comfortable talking about that. Because you mentioned that you went to Catholic school, Episcopal school, are you religious now?

Saux: I'm not now. I was raised Catholic. When you're a Catholic kid at Catholic school they do your Catholic education at school. And then if you go to a different school, you have to go to classes on Sundays or Wednesday nights or whenever your church does a class for the public school and other religious school kids to learn how to be Catholics. So I was a Catholic through confirmation, which is kind of like the last religious rite before you get married again is the next one. Sometime between confirmation and coming out of the closet. I'd stopped going to church, mostly. To this day, if my grandmother asked me to go to church I would go with her.  But that's just a me and my grandma thing. I don't know. I love her. So I would do that for her but yeah it's just, I don't know, it's not … I think especially Catholicism and Christianity can be really restricting to a lot of communities. Um, and it's just not a part of my spiritual life anymore. I'm also ethnically Jewish. I wasn't raised Jewish though. So I still feel some ties to that. I went off on some guy on the internet earlier about comparing the Holocaust to abortion. Because I was just like, don't say the word Jew if you're not a Jew, like that's not, I don't know. Say Jewish people maybe instead. But it was more just about that comparison. I didn't like it. Anyway, but no, I think I'm deeply spiritual in a lot of ways. I'm very into, like, I think that ghosts are out there. And I think that I like to read my Zodiac stuff. And I know all about my chart so I don't I don't identify as an atheist really because I think that all of those things are spiritual in a way. So I tend to use agnostic. Just as a way of referring to my belief system.

Ziegler: Thank you for that. 

Saux: There is a church that I grew up in wasn't. I don't remember them ever being specifically anti-gay or anti-trans. Really, it seemed like a it was a Catholic Church, but it was a very mind your business Catholic church where I think there were gay people who went there and they just never really discussed those issues. And a lot of the lessons seem to be about being a good and moral person and listening to your parents was a big message at church. So I think that if it didn't feel constricting in the way that religion can for a lot of trans people, I think I was pretty lucky with that.

Ziegler: But even so, you still moved away from it.

Saux: That’s right.

Ziegler: Well, this has been fantastic. And we've moved through just about everything that I really wanted to touch on it sounds like you've got just a ton of really interesting things going on. One question that I did have, again, going back to the non binary support group in the other support groups. In addition to these are there any groups in New Orleans that are, I guess community-forming without that sort of support aspect? You know what I mean? I'm just trying to get a better sense of the community in New Orleans around genderqueer or trans in general that are just sort of more like fun activities. Socially based, I suppose is what I mean.

Saux: Yes. And I'm finding more and more of those things. Right at the beginning of the crisis, there was supposed to be a trans dance that I was very excited about ...I felt like I was in sixth grade again. That was cancelled because of the virus, which I think was the safe, good choice. But when that is rescheduled I will be there for sure. I think there's for some reason in New Orleans there's a big tie between the trans community and karaoke. And I don't know where that came from. But there's a karaoke bar owned by two trans women. So then all the other trans people in the city are always there anyway, it's a safe place, I guess. Then I think there's another place that does queer karaoke once a week that I have been told ends up being mostly trans and gender non conforming type of queer karaoke so that's gonna be interesting.

Ziegler: What are the names of those two bars. Do you know? 

Saux: I can't tell you where the once-a-week karaoke is. But the other places is Kajun’s Pub, the place owned by a trans woman, or I think it's two trans women that own it, and outside of their normal nights of karaoke and mixed drinks they'll have like holiday dinners that they'll open up to trans people across the city. I haven't attended one, but I know that's a thing around Christmas or Thanksgiving, they'll usually have a dinner. I'm trying to think, what else. Breakout is an LGBT group in New Orleans. That has a lot of trans people of color running it. And then I think just connecting with it as well. They do a lot of like helping queer and trans people of color get GED's and things like that. I think their mission is around keeping queer and trans people of color out of the criminal justice system. So, education and helping connect people to services in the city. That seems to be kind of another social group that doesn't interact with LTA but is a visibly trans organization. I think that the center of trans health care in New Orleans is Crescent Care. That seems to be where a lot of people go but fortunately Ochsner has quite a few trans-friendly doctors as it seems to be the best place in the state to be trans in terms of like connecting and being cared for and finding care that's going to be affirming. I think that it's the place to be for that.

Ziegler:Well, I guess what I want to say is thank you again for doing this. This is absolutely fantastic, and as you know, this is just the second interview we've ever done for this project.

Saux: Oh, cool. 

Ziegler: I'm just so happy with this. Before I go away I do have two more things that I want to ask you, and the first one is sort of ... I’m just interested in your thoughts. So again, you know, in this project, The Louisiana Trans Oral History Project, we want to provide a snapshot of what it's like to be trans for us right now in Louisiana. Is there anything that I didn't ask about sort of any topics that you think would be important to include that I missed, maybe. Any thoughts that you had coming in that you wanted to express that we hadn't had a chance to touch on? 

Saux: I guess we could talk a little bit about southern hospitality and values around transgender identity is I think that … Between the “Yes, ma'am” and “no sir” we get kind of a little bit erased and not just non binary people. I think that there are a lot of trans people who get misgendered and because we use such gendered language around being polite to other people.  I can't imagine how many times a day it happens to all of us walking around. It's kind of an interesting thing to walk in that community of people who are out and proud to be trans, but also existing in an environment that seems oppressive and a lot of ways. I love living here, I would have a tough time moving away. I don't even know how I would approach a more accepting environment at first, it might even be weird. But I do think that there's something unique to being in the south and being queer and then maybe even Louisiana with some of our … I don't know, you can be a Cajun French speaking trans person and that doesn't exist anywhere else. I don't speak Cajun French, but I'm just saying It is a unique place to be and it's a community that doesn't necessarily accept us, but then we have people like Big Freedia who are nationally known. I'm not sure how she identifies but I think she's trans spectrum of some kind. think, at first, it was more of a drag thing, but I, from what I understand, she's identifying more with not being cis. It's a weird place. It's an interesting and wonderful and I don't know, just like everyone else. The trans people here love to eat and love to talk and gather and it's a weird time to not be able to do any of those things. But then it's been interesting seeing how we make that available to people online and I mean, we're able to connect with people that we wouldn't necessarily otherwise. Because if I go to my support group and then go to another support group for trans people in New Orleans. I'm still not going to talk to trans people in Baton Rouge or up in northern Louisiana as often. So I think that has been a great thing that's come out of the current climate we're in.

Ziegler: By that you mean since the support groups on zoom we’re freed from our geographic confines. That's a very good point. I've been thinking a lot about that myself. So thank you for that. And that's great insight. In one of the questions for our pre interview, I was asking you sort of a big, you know, big floppy question about what it means to be trans in Louisiana and you draw attention to, I'll just quote that if you don't mind.  I Have it here that you say quote: “Sometimes I think about how life in a place so prone to natural disaster might impact identities. Sometimes we have to put so much energy into surviving. That the rest can just be pushed aside.” which I thought was really nice. I knd of like the idea that there might be states out there who aren’t so prone to natural disasters and it's just easier. You know what I mean? I'm always such a well-wisher that I hope the best for them.

Saux: And I do think that we …  I don't know ... like being trans I think a lot of places is a lot of just surviving, because there's constant threat to a lot of people just for existing as themselves. But when you add on that we have hurricanes and now we have this health thing and we were kind of the hot spot for that. Along with the high HIV rates in Baton Rouge and New Orleans and just everything else in Louisiana. I think all of those problems stack up for even more surviving and harder time thriving at times.

Ziegler: There's a lot to like, and there's  a lot to sort of sigh about.

Ziegler: The final question I had is again.

[dog barking]

Ziegler: Thinking about this as something of a time capsule. Was there any queer, trans or non binary, genderqueer artists or musicians or writers, etc, that have been really influential to you either in the past or to you right now that you would like to record and sort of encourage people to look into.

Saux: Andrea Gibson is one of my favorites. they are a poet and I've seen them live, which was a wonderful experience in a room filled with other queer people and I think they've been writing for a good while. A lot of people are big fans of Andrea. I'm trying to think who else is good. I really like Rhea Butcher. That's a non binary comedy or comic person. And that's someone else I saw live when we could still see people live. And it was interesting because so in New Orleans there something called Greetings From Queer Mountain, which is a queer storytelling monthly event and the person who runs that, Amanda, is a comedian in New Orleans. So she does that, but she also is during stand up and she opened for Rhea Butcher. So it's kind of like this person that I know fairly well from interacting at Greetings From Queer Mountain and some other comedy related events, was there and opening for someone I like that's a celebrity that's crazy. I'm kind of bad at knowing music, so I don't really have a music recommendation, but I love trans stories and reading them. And so I think Andrea is a good one. Jacob Tobia is a great person to look into and Alok Menon is another person, like a writer and performer gender fluid.

Ziegler: Thank you again for your time. This has been absolutely fantastic. I think your perspective is so important. It's so great. I’m here in Baton Rouge, and New Orleans just sounds like a place I should spend more time.

Saux: It’s a nice place.